Ego and God's need for worship
I'm an Objectivist. I subscribe to Ayn Rand's philosophies of good and evil and the nature and greatness of man and free will.
I subscribe to her ideas of rational self interest or The Virtue of Selfishness.
I also subscribe to her premise that contradictions cannot exist. She said in "Atlas Shrugged":
Since contradictions can't exist, I'll check my premises.
Premise One: A god that desires worship is egotistical.
Premise Two: An egotistical god is not benevolent and good.
Premise Three: Egotistical (to me, and in my context) equals pride.
Premise Four: (My belief) Pride is a good thing, when deserved. It is ok to be proud of your accomplishments and worth.
Here is where the conflict exists: I believe that a "proud" god who desires worship and adoration could not possible be good and benevolent. I also believe that I can be good and proud at the same time. I can be good and desire others to recognize that I am good and successful and worthy of praise.
Both can't be true. Either pride is good or it is evil. The bible teaches us that pride is evil(http://www.24-7-bible.com/American-Standard-Version.html?BibleSearchTerm=pride&BibleBook=100&bibleOffset=1), yet God desires praise and is therefore proudhttp://www.24-7-bible.com/American-Standard-Version.html?BibleSearchTerm=praise&BibleBook=100.
So, can this be reconciled? I believe it can. In order to do so, we have to accept a couple of temporary hypotheses:
Hypotheses #1: God is all-powerful (note: I am not saying that this is true. I am only reconciling a specific contradiction in my philosophy. I'll constantly use the word "if" in my discussions. Because I don't know the truth.)
Hypotheses #2: Man is not all-powerful
Here is a fact that is important in this discussion: Pride is referred to in the bible primarily in the context of man (or Lucifer in one case) considering himself "better than God." The bible does not, as nearly as I can tell, equate pride with our more modern definition that is primarily related to a high sense of self worth, dignity or value. The bible is referring to pride as an unfounded, arrogant, inaccurately high sense of self worth. Inaccurate is the key here.
So, with that fact in hand, let's examine the statements. If God is all powerful, and man is not, then God is "better" than man. That does not say that man is bad. So, any man who thinks that he is better than God would be wrong. God, on the other hand, if the hypothesis were true, would naturally be better than any man. Therefore, would have the right, under my beliefs, to place himself "above" man.
If you believe as I do, that being wrong about something contributes to our own personal weakness, or even destruction, and that anything that contributes to our own personal weakness or destruction is evil, then according to my beliefs, misplaced pride would be evil. It blinds us to the possibility of improvement. So a man believing that he is better than an all powerful god would be suffering from his pride, and that pride would be evil, because it contributes to his own weakness.
On the other hand, if God is all-powerful, then He deserves his sense of self worth. But if there is a possibility that God is not all-powerful, then He doesn't.
I'm not going to even attempt to go after that one just yet. I'm just getting started on this whole theology thing, and am not equipped to reason that one out yet.
My mind sometimes works faster than my fingers. I'm a pretty smart guy, and I'm proud of that fact. I don't view that as an evil pride. I am a smart guy. That is a fact. I derive a great deal of pleasure and self-worth from the fact that I am a smart guy. I don't for one second believe that I'm the smartest guy in the world. That would be the bad version of pride, and would limit me and my thinking, because I would have to believe that only my own thoughts and interpretations were correct. I would have to deny the possibility of truths that I didn't yet understand.
My point is this: The concept of a benevolent god who is proud and requests acknowledgement and praise is not antithetical (sp?) to itself. If there is a Benevolent god, then it's okay for he/she/it to say, "Hey, I've done a lot of stuff for you. Would you give me a little credit here?"
So, to sum it up, after checking my premises, I've decided that Premise #2 is false. An egotistical (or proud) god who requests acknowledgement and praise is not inherently evil, so that god can be benevolent. Chalk one up for rational thinking. God, if you are reading, you get a point on this one. But we ain't done yet.
The follow up question, which I'll have to address another time is this: Can a benevolent god request acknowledgement and praise, with no proof? Or is god willing to prove his existence and abilities, and the nature of his power to mere mortals in a quantifiable, scientifically measurable manner before requesting that praise and acknowledgement.
In other words, "What's the deal with this Blind Faith thing?"
I believe that blind faith is evil, because it contributes to our destruction, and weakens our mind and free will.
But, I've got work to do, so I'm not gonna tackle that one yet.
Before I can come to rest on some of these beliefs, I'm going to have to address Blind Faith. I'll get there, eventually.
(Hint: I'm not so sure that blind faith is required, but I don't know yet.)
I subscribe to her ideas of rational self interest or The Virtue of Selfishness.
I also subscribe to her premise that contradictions cannot exist. She said in "Atlas Shrugged":
In my previous post, I suggested that:"Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think you are facing a
contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is
wrong."
I also believe that a benevolent god wouldn't care whether someone worshipped or
even acknowledged him. It would be enough for his "grace" to simply be a good
person who consistently, honestly tries to improve themselves and the world
around them by upholding and promoting values that are in line with that god's
values. Worship would not be one of those values. A desire for worship is an
egotistical thing, and a benevolent god would not be egotistical.
Since contradictions can't exist, I'll check my premises.
Premise One: A god that desires worship is egotistical.
Premise Two: An egotistical god is not benevolent and good.
Premise Three: Egotistical (to me, and in my context) equals pride.
Premise Four: (My belief) Pride is a good thing, when deserved. It is ok to be proud of your accomplishments and worth.
Here is where the conflict exists: I believe that a "proud" god who desires worship and adoration could not possible be good and benevolent. I also believe that I can be good and proud at the same time. I can be good and desire others to recognize that I am good and successful and worthy of praise.
Both can't be true. Either pride is good or it is evil. The bible teaches us that pride is evil(http://www.24-7-bible.com/American-Standard-Version.html?BibleSearchTerm=pride&BibleBook=100&bibleOffset=1), yet God desires praise and is therefore proudhttp://www.24-7-bible.com/American-Standard-Version.html?BibleSearchTerm=praise&BibleBook=100.
So, can this be reconciled? I believe it can. In order to do so, we have to accept a couple of temporary hypotheses:
Hypotheses #1: God is all-powerful (note: I am not saying that this is true. I am only reconciling a specific contradiction in my philosophy. I'll constantly use the word "if" in my discussions. Because I don't know the truth.)
Hypotheses #2: Man is not all-powerful
Here is a fact that is important in this discussion: Pride is referred to in the bible primarily in the context of man (or Lucifer in one case) considering himself "better than God." The bible does not, as nearly as I can tell, equate pride with our more modern definition that is primarily related to a high sense of self worth, dignity or value. The bible is referring to pride as an unfounded, arrogant, inaccurately high sense of self worth. Inaccurate is the key here.
So, with that fact in hand, let's examine the statements. If God is all powerful, and man is not, then God is "better" than man. That does not say that man is bad. So, any man who thinks that he is better than God would be wrong. God, on the other hand, if the hypothesis were true, would naturally be better than any man. Therefore, would have the right, under my beliefs, to place himself "above" man.
If you believe as I do, that being wrong about something contributes to our own personal weakness, or even destruction, and that anything that contributes to our own personal weakness or destruction is evil, then according to my beliefs, misplaced pride would be evil. It blinds us to the possibility of improvement. So a man believing that he is better than an all powerful god would be suffering from his pride, and that pride would be evil, because it contributes to his own weakness.
On the other hand, if God is all-powerful, then He deserves his sense of self worth. But if there is a possibility that God is not all-powerful, then He doesn't.
I'm not going to even attempt to go after that one just yet. I'm just getting started on this whole theology thing, and am not equipped to reason that one out yet.
My mind sometimes works faster than my fingers. I'm a pretty smart guy, and I'm proud of that fact. I don't view that as an evil pride. I am a smart guy. That is a fact. I derive a great deal of pleasure and self-worth from the fact that I am a smart guy. I don't for one second believe that I'm the smartest guy in the world. That would be the bad version of pride, and would limit me and my thinking, because I would have to believe that only my own thoughts and interpretations were correct. I would have to deny the possibility of truths that I didn't yet understand.
My point is this: The concept of a benevolent god who is proud and requests acknowledgement and praise is not antithetical (sp?) to itself. If there is a Benevolent god, then it's okay for he/she/it to say, "Hey, I've done a lot of stuff for you. Would you give me a little credit here?"
So, to sum it up, after checking my premises, I've decided that Premise #2 is false. An egotistical (or proud) god who requests acknowledgement and praise is not inherently evil, so that god can be benevolent. Chalk one up for rational thinking. God, if you are reading, you get a point on this one. But we ain't done yet.
The follow up question, which I'll have to address another time is this: Can a benevolent god request acknowledgement and praise, with no proof? Or is god willing to prove his existence and abilities, and the nature of his power to mere mortals in a quantifiable, scientifically measurable manner before requesting that praise and acknowledgement.
In other words, "What's the deal with this Blind Faith thing?"
I believe that blind faith is evil, because it contributes to our destruction, and weakens our mind and free will.
But, I've got work to do, so I'm not gonna tackle that one yet.
Before I can come to rest on some of these beliefs, I'm going to have to address Blind Faith. I'll get there, eventually.
(Hint: I'm not so sure that blind faith is required, but I don't know yet.)
posted by Another Geek at 4:07 PM
11 Comments:
Just some questions for consideration when you set your premises. These are many of the questions I asked myself and researched in my search for God.
1. What does God's word say about worship? Is worship for God or the person worshipping?
2. What was God's intent in creating man? How do we fulfill that purpose? Have we become so self-centered that we care only how God will fit into our ideas and life instead of living for him and the purpose he designed us for?
3. What was the purpose of free will? Why did God not just create us to love him and do his work? If we did not have the choice in loving and serving him, would it really be love?
A great book to read is Lee Strobel's "A Case for Christ." The author was an athiet whose wife got saved. After seeing a transformation in her, he began to research the "whole christian thing" by interviewing top scholars, critics and other leading intellectuals on tough questions to christianity. It is a great summary of apologetic evidence for the existance of Jesus Christ. It also has some great refrences for deeper research.
Good luck on your journey!
Emily,
Good questions for consideration. I'm actually reading "The Case for Faith" by Strobel right now. It's been interesting.
I'm actually disappointed at how one-sided it is, considering that it is positioned as an analytical piece, but it is a good read anyway.
Thanks for the comments!
"The case for Christ" is a little less one sided than "The Case for Faith" (it was like his journal for finding God).
Look for books on apologetics from historians or scholars rather than theologens if you are looking for just a presentation of the facts. Strobel's are really just a good overview.
I'll let you know if I find any good books.
Once again, you are greatly appreciated!
My friend, faith in god, among intelligent people is much like embracing communism. It fundamentally requires an act of deliberate ignorance.
You won't find some kind of faith by thinking about it. Faith comes from somewhere else entirely. If god can be known, it's not something that can be known through the processes of the human mind. Faith is independent of logic, reason and such concepts.
Take the leap or don't, it doesn't matter. It shouldn't affect how you live your life, and I'd doubt any god would care one way or the other.
Did you know that GOD has a blog?!
I have found HIM most helpful.
Go here! You can ask HIM anything. HE always welcomes new disciples, and doesn't seem to mind that I'm an atheist.
Jedmunds - Yep, yep, yep and maybe. I have no desire or expectation to find faith through reason. I don't think that's possible. But, I am attempting to reasonably evaluate the possiblities and the nature of faith and belief as they pertain to my life. I appreciate what you are saying, and thank you for stopping by. Y'all come back now, y'hear?
FreedomGirl - Great link...thanks! (note to other readers: if you are easily offended with regards to religion, you probably will be.) I'm adding it to my links. For now, Go Here to Talk To God. Thanks again for your post. By the way, I went through your blog a little bit and enjoyed that read, too. You had another great link there. Thanks!
God loves you
Interesting way to answer some serious questions (Using Pride to discover the existence of god). I have struggled with this in the past. From the looks of things, you have a faulty premise…#3. To say that egotistical = pride defies both of their definitions. To qualify your definitions with “to me, and in my context” may make you feel better about the faulty premise, but it is still faulty.
Ayn Rand described herself as an egoist, not an egotist. An egoist relies on their own intelligence, and an egotist places their importance at the expense of others.
Pride is the result of achievement. If you want to achieve at the expense of others, your premise holds. However, if you define pride as the emotional response to the achievement of a value consistent with your rational self interest, then your premise does not hold.
Also, your hypothesis jumps the gun a little. You claim to be seeking the existence of God, but your hypothesis assumes he already exists. This is the same mistake made by many people who investigate creationism, UFO’s or ghosts…They start with the conclusion, and then use science to look for the facts to prove it. This method itself violates logic and the scientific method. Might I suggest, instead, that you look at whether or not God exists, or more basic than that, why should man in general, or us in particular, care to investigate the question at all?
hey!! I'm here
DEAD
0 greetings and salutations!
"Jesus was died, and so God was born."
OFFICE DOORS OF HEAVEN:
So, a tough day, bastard brothers called SCARY Angels...Mary's arrived at Nanny Mallon's to sleep and do some gardening, I'm back in two nights!!!!! YAY...I nay want to write much more, but!! Have realised, Everyone to God!! Baal men died!! Finished!!
Something from Heaven, that brightened my day!!
'How are my girls??!!'
I listen;
'No!!! Ra will think you're mental!!'
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